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#EditorsChat 3: "Talkin' 'bout my punctuation!"

 

Punctuation / Ponctuation (#EditorsChat / #ReviseursCauserie 3)

Talking 'bout my punctuation / À votre ponctuation!

 
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    On your marks / À vos marques…

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    Et si on mangeait les enfants? Joignez-vous à nous le 8 décembre à 14 h, HNE, pour parler de ponctuation à #ReviseursCauserie #sauverdesvies
     
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    Punctuation saves lives. MT @editorscanada: Let's eat grandma! Wait…what? Join punctuation #EditorsChat Dec. 8  http://www.editors.ca/node/3165 
     
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    Talking 'bout my punctuation. #EditorsChat Dec 8, 2 pm EST. Yours truly hosts with @ElizdAnjou and @jaduperreault.
     
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    Get set / prêts…

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    #EditorsChat starts at 2 p.m., EST today. Will you be joining us for the first time? Here's how to participate:  http://www.editors.ca/editorschat 
     
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    #EditorsChat starts in 15 min. We'll be tweeting a lot for an hour, so you may want to mute us. Better still, join us for punctuation tips!
     
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    #EditorsChat session about to start! Have been doing finger calisthenics. Mute me for next hour if you DON'T care for my punctuation advice.
     
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    @ElizdAnjou Like...finger push-ups? You are WAY ahead of me. Am mentally ready, though. #EditorsChat
     
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    Let's eat grandma! / Et si on mangeait les enfants?

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    Bienvenue à tous pour notre troisième #ReviseursCauserie - À votre ponctuation!
     
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    .@editorscanada Doing well over here in rainy Vancouver, BC!
     
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    @tanyatrusler You're among friends! A punctuation chat to brighten your day. #EditorsChat
     
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    @FrancesLPeck @editorscanada @michelleou @StaceyDAtkinson Woo hoo!! (There, you get TWO exclamation marks, standard practice be darned.)
     
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    Let's get started! Have questions about punctuation? Want to share examples of punctuation gone awry? Let's hear it! #EditorsChat
     
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    Questions / Discussion

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    Will start with horror. Closed-up ens for ems in Linden MacIntyre’s latest book!!! (see last para) #EditorsChat https://t.co/qDJ8DS2vzH
    Will start with horror. Closed-up ens for ems in Linden MacIntyre’s latest book!!! (see last para) #EditorsChat pic.twitter.com/qDJ8DS2vzH
     
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    @FrancesLPeck Those really hurt my head when I read. #Editorschat But em dashes with spaces before and after are also painful!
     
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    Should be an em (open or closed; both OK) or an open en (yuk), which some designers use in lieu of em. #EditorsChat  https://twitter.com/MichaelHelfield/status/674305770918408192 
     
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    @FrancesLPeck And if using an open em or en, make sure the first space is a nonbreaking space! #EditorsChat
     
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    @16annelou @FrancesLPeck One of my copy editing pet peeves is when too many em dashes make a paragraph go on and on... #EditorsChat
     
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    @DJKrushen @FrancesLPeck Very Victorian! Some paragraphs in Victorian novels are a single sentence – with lots of dashes! #Editorschat
     
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    Q1 When should I use single quotes instead of double? #EditorsChat
     
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    A1 #EditorsChat For quotes within quotes---single inside double. That’s really the only standard use.
     
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    A1 #EditorsChat Tho’ authors like to use 'em if just a word or two goes in quotes, or if quotes indicate slang or sarcasm. Change to double.
     
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    .@ElizdAnjou I agree. Yet some clients insist on single quotes to offset words (e.g., vocab term in ed mats). I prefer double. #EditorsChat
     
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    .@tanyatrusler I've never found a style or grammar manual that recommended this, yet many aus and students swear they were taught it.
     
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    A1 @CdnPress style calls for single quotes around headlines. I think this misleads some into thinking singles are the norm. #EditorsChat
     
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    A1. I once edited a novel with single quote around all the dialogue...had to change them all...ooouf. #EditorsChat
     
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    @StaceyDAtkinson And some authors just avoid quotes altogether, which takes some getting used to. #Editorschat
     
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    Q1. Quels signes de ponctuation nécessitent un espace avant? #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    A1 Un espace avant & après le double point; après les guillemets d’ouverture et avant les guillemets finaux #reviseursCauserie
     
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    Espace “fine” ou rien devant les points d’exclamation et d’interrogation et devant le point-virgule. #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    The interrobang! Is it ?! or !? I like the first because I want to emphasis my question, not question my emphasis! #EditorsChat
     
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    Interrobang is the two superimposed on one another, so neither is first. So few fonts support it. :-( #EditorsChat  https://twitter.com/tanyatrusler/status/674304158611013632 
     
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    .@FrancesLPeck Ah, yes! And that’s too bad. I use it in texts all the time! #EditorsChat
     
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    @editorscanada A2: If we call it the interrobang,should we follow the order of the word? Hence "?!" #EditorsChat
     
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    @editorscanada Q2-1 I love the interrobang and use "?!" often in informal writing. #EditorsChat
     
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    Tough to standardize such a rebellious mark. I like @MichaelHelfield's idea: (1) interro + (2) bang. #EditorsChat @lardsil @editorscanada
     
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    @editorscanada Q2 - 2 Do you recommend to treat it like the exclamation point in formal writing? (i.e., use sparingly?) #EditorsChat
     
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    Q2 Probably fair to say NEVER use interrobang in formal writing. #EditorsChat @lardsil @editorscanada
     
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    @lardsil @editorscanada I would not allow an interrobang in MS, as few readers are familiar with it. It's more of a historical curiosity.
     
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    One punctuation mark to rule them all / Un signe de ponctuation pour les gouverner tous
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    A2 Kind of loving that we got interrobangs in the second question. Are we among friends or what? #EditorsChat
     
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    @editorscanada Not sure, got distracted by matching LotR tattoos. John Rhys Davies sent his stunt double. That's what you need, @16annelou
     
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    @APeaceinNS A request for @16annelou then. Mme President: Pls don't send national office staff as stunt doubles to get interrobang tattoos.
     
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    Q2. Pouvons-nous faire confiance à des programmes de traduction comme Google Translate? #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    A1 Non,ou on peut avoir des traductions comme: Made in Turkey/Fabriqué en Dinde ou sport fans/ventilateurs de sports... #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @StaceyDAtkinson Comme tout TAO, on ne peut s'y fier à 100 %. Rien ne remplacera jamais l'humain. #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    A2 Les programmes de traduction ne sont pas encore assez sophistiqués pour comprendre le contexte. #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @StaceyDAtkinson A2. Google Translate peut servir de base, mais les textes traduits ne sont pas des versions définitives. #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    .@nora_noramkelly I tend to follow CMOS and italicize movie titles, book titles, TV series. #EditorsChat
     
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    .@nora_noramkelly #EditorsChat A2 Depends on style. Usually for emphasized words, titles of whole works (books, albums; not chapters, songs)
     
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    .@editorscanada I also italicize to emphasize a term in a blog post, esp if I use it over & over (rather than double quotes) #EditorsChat
     
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    .@tanyatrusler #EditorsChat A3 - Most style guides wd agree with you, I think (tho' usually only nec on 1st use of term).
     
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    A2: Some authors italicize foreign words. I think that works out nicely. #EditorsChat
     
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    @nora_noramkelly @editorscanada Using double quotes for a word in every second line or so can look messy! #EditorsChat
     
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    A3: We italicize almost nothing in online content. #EditorsChat
     
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    .@LuCormier1 That's a great point, Lu. Again, italics are v. much a style issue, and the conventions are context-specific. #EditorsChat
     
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    What to do in an international space, like FB? Follow US, UK, or Cdn rules? I use Cdn but worry editors might think me dumb! #EditorsChat
     
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    .@Piglita Surely in 2015 an editor who does not know English conventions vary across nations is the dumb one! #EditorsChat
     
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    @ElizdAnjou But some folks can be all judge-y. In DMs to UK peeps, I switch to periods i/s quotation marks (bcs I prefer that). #EditorsChat
     
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    Fly the Canadian flag high, @Piglita. No harm in international #editors seeing how we do it here. #EditorsChat
     
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    .@Piglita Very good Q! Esp for things like punctuation outside/inside end quote. #EditorsChat
     
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    @Piglita Since Canadian English is a blend of UK and US, I figure we're a model of compromise. Hold your head high! #Editorschat
     
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    Waited until the midway point of #EditorsChat for that controversial punctuation question… 1/2
     
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    A4 I’m pro-Oxford comma all the way, but I do have to relent occasionally if my client doesn’t like it. #EditorsChat
     
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    @editorscanada A4 I'm partial to the Oxford comma but recognize that there are cases where it won't help you:  https://stroppyeditor.wordpress.com/2015/03/02/the-oxford-comma/ 
     
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    @lardsil @editorscanada A4: I agree, at times, it may seem excessive. But sometimes it helps clarify meaning. #EditorsChat
     
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    @editorscanada When it's my choice, I use the Oxford comma. But I bow to the client's style preference. #EditorsChat
     
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    @DJKrushen @editorscanada Same here. #EditorsChat. Ceteris paribus, the comma (in most cases) avoids ambiguity. It it adds it, I remove it.
     
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    Q4 If anyone tweets that dumb example about Ayn Rand and God, I'm outta here. Serial comma seldom needed. "No" style is great. #EditorsChat
     
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    Q4 Since comma replaces "and" in lists, why use both? Serial comma redundant unless clarity demands it. #EditorsChat
     
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    .@16annelou Sorry, Anne Louise. Not sure I can sit next to you at #EditorsNEC meetings any more.#EditorsChat
     
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    @ElizdAnjou @ElizdAnjou Given the many things we have in common, I'm willing to overlook this flaw. #Editorschat
     
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    A4 @FrancesLPeck When teaching English learners, visual cues help them (natural pauses in speech) so I like using them. #EditorsChat
     
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    @tanyatrusler @FrancesLPeck #EditorsChat This is why I like them. You have a rhythm, and it is only makes sense to me to keep it.
     
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    There *are* times an Oxford comma changes meaning. Necessary then, if only then. #EditorsChat
     
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    .@FrancesLPeck Q4 I love the Oxford comma. It's not always needed, but I like the consistency too. #EditorsChat @ElizdAnjou
     
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    Q4 So you wear your heart on your wall, @ElizdAnjou? That's almost as good as an interrobang tattoo. #EditorsChat
     
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    Q4 But I'm a freelancer (you pay, I edit!), so I cheerfully follow house style.
     
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    @StaceyDAtkinson @jaduperreault Q3. Quels ouvrages/ressources utilisez-vous pour : ponctuation, typographie en français? #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    Q3. J'utilise Larousse (mais il est européen, non?) et Ramat...et Google! @Mahika24 @jaduperreault #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @jaduperreault @StaceyDAtkinson A3. J'adore le Ramat aussi! C'est mon livre de référence pour la typographie! #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @Mahika24 A3 en plus, j'utilise Le Guide du Rédacteur et Le Multi Dictionnaire des Difficultés de la langue française #reviseurscauserie
     
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    @jaduperreault @StaceyDAtkinson A3. Je consulte aussi régulièrement la Banque de dépannage linguistique de l'OQLF. #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @Mahika24 @StaceyDAtkinson Merci, j'aimerais trouver une bonne source pour la grammaire aussi! #reviseurscauserie
     
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    A3. Le site Termium - est-il une bonne source d'information sur la ponctuation? #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @jaduperreault @StaceyDAtkinson A4.Pour la grammaire, à part les ressources déjà nommées, il y a plusieurs sites en ligne.#ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @jaduperreault @StaceyDAtkinson A4. Il y a Le Portail linguistique du Canada, les outils d'aide à la rédaction de TERMIUM #Reviseurscauserie
     
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    @jaduperreault @StaceyDAtkinson A4. Il y a : Le français au micro, Visez juste en français de l'Université d'Ottawa. #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @StaceyDAtkinson A3. C'est une très bonne source, le Guide du rédacteur contient des éléments de grammaire, entre autres. #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    Q5 "Hello everybody." Do I need a comma after "Hello"? #EditorsChat
     
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    Q5 #EditorsChat Ah, the vocative comma (of “Let’s eat, Grandma” fame). (Latin vocare = call.) I mourn its slow decline as well.
     
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    Q5 Ooh! My favourite controversial question. Comma utterly abandoned in emails (e.g., “Hello editors”). I grieve the loss. #EditorsChat
     
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    A5 Comma needed before name of person addressed. (Apologies to all who've seen this.) #cannibalism #EditorsChat https://t.co/S9uEoFYO3k
    A5 Comma needed before name of person addressed. (Apologies to all who've seen this.) #cannibalism #EditorsChat pic.twitter.com/S9uEoFYO3k
     
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    @FrancesLPeck I share your pain. I persist with the comma after Hello or Hi, but I fear the other side is winning. #Editorschat
     
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    @16annelou @editorscanada @FrancesLPeck Q5I feel it's so common to omit the comma that I second-guess myself when I include it ##EditorsChat
     
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    A5 @editorscanada Technically, yes. But is this going out the way of “Me too”? Nowadays it seems commas are dropped more & more #EditorsChat
     
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    @FrancesLPeck Funny, this Oxford comma user doesn't seem to miss that email comma! #EditorsChat
     
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    A5 @FrancesLPeck But would you then also include the second comma at start of email or letter (Hello, editors,)? #EditorsChat
     
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    A5 It's a full sentence so technically should be "Hello, editors." Period. Then continue email. Old-fashioned? @tanyatrusler #EditorsChat
     
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    A5 @FrancesLPeck Period much better than 2nd comma. But period seems too serious to me. I use Hello X, but I too mourn the loss #EditorsChat
     
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    @editorscanada @tanyatrusler maybe the Apostrophe Protection Society needs a sibling - the Comma Protection Society #EditorsChat
     
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    In current project, author doesn't put comma before (or commas around) "too" in longer sentences. I want to add them. Should I? #EditorsChat
     
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    Modern editors often omit comma(s) with "too." I've never understood it. No pause, not parenthetical. #EditorsChat  https://twitter.com/msalisonjacques/status/674317277605453825 
     
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    Q5. Quelles sont les erreurs de ponctuation les plus courantes? #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @StaceyDAtkinson A5. L'emploi des majuscules diffère souvent d'en anglais et pose problème à plusieurs. #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @StaceyDAtkinson A5. Oui, exact. Les mois/jours de la semaine sont un exemple de ces différences. #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @Mahika24 A5 Aussi la plupart du temps les programmes de typographie ne supportent pas un "espace fine" alors on met rien #reviseurscauserie
     
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    @jaduperreault A5. Ça c'est un sujet délicat : l'espace fine! Il n'y a pas de consensus, c'est problématique. #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @Mahika24 A5 Oui, parfois c'est pas du tout comme en anglais. Aussi, la forme du dialogue et l'usage des guillements #reviseurscauserie
     
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    Q3. Est-il acceptable d'utiliser les signes " " à la place des signes « »? #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    @StaceyDAtkinson A3. Ça dépend du contexte. Pour une citation double (citation à l'intérieur d'une citation), on peut #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    Q6 for @jaduperreault: Is it okay to use " " marks in place of « » marks? #EditorsChat
     
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    Q6 @editorscanada @jaduperreault I thought this was an English vs. French style preference… #EditorsChat
     
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    A6 Really depends on the client. Most book publishers use the traditional « » but newspapers & magazines often use " " or both #editorschat
     
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    Q7 What resources (books, websites, etc.) about punctuation do you recommend? #EditorsChat
     
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    A7 #EditorsChat Ruvinsky’s PRACTICAL GRAMMAR is my standard recommendation for basics. Compact, full of great info AND exercises, Canadian.
     
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    A7 Hey! It's my new favourite too. Am teaching from it in @SFU editing certificate grammar course. #EditorsChat  https://twitter.com/ElizdAnjou/status/674317869312843776 
     
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    .@FrancesLPeck In the Ryerson Pub Certificate Grammar Course I teach, my students and I call her "Aunt Maxine." #EditorsChat
     
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    A7 #EditorsChat For a little more detail and complexity, move on to Stilman’s GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT. (BTW, au is also a Cdn editor.)
     
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    Wrap-up / En conclusion

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    That's a wrap for #EditorsChat. Thank you to everyone who participated during the chat and who sent in questions ahead of time.
     
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    C’est tout pour aujourd’hui! Merci à tous ceux qui ont participé à notre séance de clavardage. #ReviseursCauserie
     
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    (Sorry if we weren't able to get to your #EditorsChat punctuation questions today. This was a popular topic!)
     
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    #editorschat So much fun to spend an hour in the company of fellow puncutation appreciators.
     
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    Great to hear everyone's viewpoint today! Thanks for hosting, @editorscanada. #EditorsChat
     
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    Thanks also to our #EditorsChat co-host, @StaceyDAtkinson. And to @breanne_mac for helping to organize our chat.
     
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    We'll announce the date and theme for our January #EditorsChat in the New Year. Happy holidays, everyone!
     
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    Joyeuses fêtes à tous! Nous allons annoncer la prochaine séance de clavardage en janvier 2016! #ReviseursCauserie